I'd Rather Be Canyoneering

The unexpected night out with Gordon L Larsen M.D. from Zion SAR

• Carma Evans • Episode 10

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Have you ever wondered exactly what happens after you place a call to search and rescue (SAR)? Do you have the emergency essentials, in your pack, to survive a night in the canyon? Do you know what the most common issues are that lead to injuries and deaths in Zion canyons? Gordon L Larsen M.D. from Zion SAR answers all these need to know questions and more!

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Katie:

Hey everyone. Thanks for joining us. I'm Katie

Carma:

and I'm Carma and you're listening to, I'd rather be canyoneering.

Katie:

We're best friends who totally geek out about canyon rigging and beautifully slot canyons. Basically we'd always rather be canyoneering. But when we can't, we spend every spare minute, we have talking about it.

Carma:

This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. Please seek professional instruction and practice technical skills in a controlled environment before entering slot canyons. Your safety is entirely your own responsibility.

Katie:

Welcome to our canyon crew!

Carma:

Hey everyone. Welcome back. It's getting really close to Thanksgiving and Something that we're super thankful for as Canyoneers are all the wonderful people who work in search and

Katie:

rescue Yeah, we are!

Carma:

because we know that they have our back. And so we have a really awesome opportunity today. We're going to get to speak with Gordon Larson who's been working with Zion search and rescue for quite some time. Welcome to the show, Gordon.

Gordon:

Thank you. It's good to be here.

Carma:

first off, Gordon, we just want to get to know you. So can you tell us what your role is with Zion Search and Rescue?

Gordon:

I am the medical advisor for Zion National Park. And I also participate with their search and rescue program. I have been doing that as a volunteer 26 years now.

Katie:

that's impressive. Gordon, Roughly, how many SAR calls do you think you've been involved in? Over the years?

Gordon:

Well, it's hard to say exactly because I don't keep a log, but I estimate I have... I have been involved in some form or another in about 60 different rescue scenarios over in Zion National Park.

Katie:

Wow.

Carma:

what is your medical background?

Gordon:

Yeah, that's a good question. I'm one of the emergency physicians at St. George Regional Hospital. I am board certified in emergency medicine and have a fellowship in wilderness medicine. I'm also a climber and canyoneer and, uh, have participated in rope rescue and search and rescue training over these many years with my association with Zion. So some of the ways I'm involved with Search and Rescues, because I am on duty at the hospital, you know, I work shifts at the emergency department, when we get a call out for a search and rescue, I'm not always able to go because like, well, I'm on duty or I go on duty in six hours. So I can't drive over to Zion But often if they're in the field and they have an interesting or difficult or serious medical Situation they will call me on the phone And so I'm in touch with them sometimes directly by phone and sometimes through radio relay the dispatch radio relay to the patient and so some of the medical decisions are made that way.

Carma:

so are you a volunteer or are you paid by the Park Service

Gordon:

I am a volunteer, although when search and rescue teams gather, they do get compensated for their time on the rescue itself.

Carma:

Okay,

Katie:

That's good. Yeah. Can you explain the process to us of what happens when somebody places a SAR call?

Gordon:

there are many different ways for a call to come in to the park service needing a rescue. Zion National Park is a national park and a federal agency, but it also is inside Washington County and the state of Utah. And so there's, many overlapping agencies, but essentially in some manner a call has to come to dispatch at, the emergency operations center in, Zion National Park. This can be from a shuttle bus driver, from a reporting party, like a third party, it can be from one of the other rangers. In some cases it can be from the satellite services that you can subscribe to and they'll notify the dispatch at Zion that there's been a signal sent from within the park boundaries.

Katie:

Gotcha. So there's a lot of different things that could be happening depending on which way that call came in.

Gordon:

Correct. So, let's say it finally gets to dispatch that somebody might need help. On duty that day, one of the Rangers, and they're usually involved in law enforcement, And EMS and SAR and some of these Rangers and trained in all three. So, and, uh, I really like working with the Zion Rangers. They're almost always college graduates. They're highly motivated to work for the park service. They love to be outside. And yeah, they're fire trained. They're federal law enforcement trained. They're paramedic trained. They're search and rescue. And they're just Awesome people. to hang out with.

Katie:

Sounds like

Carma:

Yeah.

Katie:

people.

Carma:

Yeah.

Gordon:

But anyway, so one of these guys, gals, or guys, cause it's, about 50 50 over there now, the female male rangers, one of them is assigned, And as IC incident commander and, when they're an IC, they then decide how much resources is going to be, sent towards this complaint. So one of the first things they need to do is this legitimate call. And if they're not sure, or if it's like so, so they send out the hasty team. to go find out the details. Where exactly are they? What it's going to take to get them out of there? And, you know, are medically unstable? And then, uh, IC will then put a page in to the search and rescue system, which there are a core of about 10 rangers in Zion who are trained, some of them highly trained, and then several members of the community in Springdale. They're usually guides, or they're, dirtbag climbers looking for a little extra money

Carma:

Mm

Gordon:

and a few EMS guys and then a few from the community like me that have long term relationships or interest, you know in Washington County and Zion search and rescue and stuff and so that page goes out probably to about 30 And when they say, oh, we need 10 people to respond, you call it dispatch. And usually the first 10 that respond will be on that, you know, call. And then sometimes they'll do additional pages. We need four more or something like that. So then they assemble the team at the EOC. And they go through the whole scenario, they talk about the safety of everything, what's going to need to be done. We have a search and rescue van, which has all the equipment. And then the IC at this point decides whether a helicopter can be of help in this situation too. And, then they dispatch the operation, and some operations are done. 90 minutes and some go on for two days, you know, so and the other thing is there could be multiple Incidences at the same time which is not uncommon on a busy weekend in Zion where you have maybe a Rescue off one of the hiking trails like up to emerald pools But now we have a call out of the narrows and oh, yeah, someone's hurt in the bottom of Pine

Katie:

Yeah.

Gordon:

You know things like that

Carma:

Mm hmm.

Katie:

Or weather might cause you to have the same type of incident everywhere around the park.

Gordon:

well that brings up a whole new category of issues and problems with Zion is, uh, flash floods. Yeah, I have been on some rescues where we are racing the clock on you know, storms coming in and There's been a couple times where we've actually extracted the team and waited for the flash flood threat to pass before we put him back in

Carma:

Wow. Yike. Yeah.

Gordon:

or hopeful that the injured party is at least up on the side out of the way.

Katie:

Yeah. Difficult choices to make at that point, and really a lot of respect for people who are willing to go in and be in that zone.

Gordon:

Right. And Zion National Park has a challenge in that communications is difficult. Even with cell phone towers and satellite and radio towers and stuff, because of the deep slot canyons in Zion, it is still a considerable challenge to, have real time communication throughout the park.

Carma:

yeah, I'm thinking of, when we went down Mystery, I forgot to send my message to, everyone at home that we were, dropping into the death gully. And so, we were partway down it when I tried to send, with my inReach to be like, hey, we're dropping into the canyon, just updating everyone. It took, a couple hours for it to finally,send, because we were so deep.

Gordon:

Yeah. That's the challenge. And in fact, sometimes some of the first stages of, Finding someone out in the backcountry, one of the assignments or roles for one of the search and rescue members is to be radio relay. We will spot people up on ridges or certain prominent points to just stay there and to be a relay between dispatch and the team that's out on the ground because of these exact challenges.

Carma:

Yeah, that? makes a lot of sense. Like a mini cell tower, or what are you carrying to do that?

Katie:

Yeah. Yeah.

Gordon:

The Park Service has, radios other than that, I couldn't tell you the details of the specifics of them, but,

Carma:

course, Katie wants to know the, the, the audio engineering side

Katie:

that's part of my background.

Gordon:

Sometimes they'll give me one and say, okay, this is the channel we're on. This is how you transmit it. Don't touch anything else.

Carma:

don't change any

Katie:

Don't break my toys you can just you can play with it,

Gordon:

Yeah, so, one of the questions I do get is when someone calls for a search and rescue, a SAR rescue in Zion, how much does it cost them? And, fortunately, Zion SAR program does not charge anyone for a rescue. Now, once, once they reach EMS, the medical helicopter or an ambulance on the road, then typical medical, charges and fees and applications apply. But the search and rescue program at Zion is totally funded within the Park Service.

Katie:

Awesome

Carma:

Yeah.

Katie:

So having been out there on so many of these and been on so many different positions on the team, you really have a well rounded sense of what's going on. What do you think are the factors that get people into the most trouble in the back country of Zion? Whether canyoneering or not, but just in general.

Gordon:

yes. Not everything that search and rescue responds to in Zion National Park is related to canyoneering. And in fact, probably the majority of calls are from just the main trails. But because of the unique topography of Zion, lot of the rescues do turn into a canyoneer experience because, we're talking the Zion Narrows, which. In a way, it's canyoneering, it just might not be the most technical, but it does involve descending the narrow slot canyon. The subway, which has a few short rappels, uh, but is the site of many of our rescues and so forth. lot of the rescues do involve, people that are encountering challenging descents through wet, cold, narrow corridors. the vast majority of injuries in canyoneering and in the backcountry are to the lower extremity. When someone jumps or slides down and, breaks their ankle or breaks their legs or dislocates their knee, and then they're not able to progress on their own and they need a rescue at that point.

Carma:

Right, which is super difficult to provide, right? To get to them and get them out.

Gordon:

you know, when I started participating with Search and Rescue, and you see, in your mind you picture a litter, and like six volunteers carrying someone along, it looks reasonable, but if you ever do it in person, after about a hundred feet over rugged terrain, six people are fairly exhausted, and so. Anytime we have to, rescue people out of difficult, rugged terrain, more than just a few hundred feet, it becomes, quite the operation. And, also, you have to take into account that you can sustain injuries to the, rescue members in these, conditions. Yeah.

Carma:

yeah,

Katie:

Especially if you're going into these narrow slots and trying to maneuver something that's super solid. Do you think that in general the rescue teams end up doing helicopter lifts because of the nature of these rescues and how difficult and strenuous they would be if you tried to continue down canyon?

Gordon:

Yes, absolutely, uh, using helicopters in Zion National Park has increased in frequency over the past 20 years, for several reasons. One is we have more helicopter rescue services available to us. Some is through the park service. One's based out of Grand Canyon National Park. The Utah Highway Patrol has a helicopter that's trained for rescue, and then some of the medical helicopters locally can provide some assistance. So whenever we have an extended rescue deep in the backcountry of Zion, one of the first things they do is assess the situation and see how can a helicopter help us. Uh, whether it's inserting members of the SAR team to get there quickly. Or to get the injured patient or parties out of there. Unfortunately, not every scenario is conducive to the helicopters. They cannot land in the heart of the Narrows, you know, in the Wall Street area. They can't land up in the subway section. In fact, most of the time they actually don't land. When we use the helicopters, they use the long line method or hoist. Or what they call short haul,

Carma:

Yeah.

Gordon:

Have a rescuer dangling from about a 200 foot rope and they hover over the site, they attach the patient and the rescuer to the line, and then they lift up. I'm sure it's an exhilarating ride for the injured injured party and the ranger. And they take him to the nearest, spot on the road where they then put him down and then from there we can transfer him to a medical helicopter or put him in the back of an ambulance and take him on to the hospital from there. Or in some cases where their injury is minor, but the rescue is so difficult, they then refuse transport and go by private car at that point.

Carma:

Yeah, it makes sense.

Katie:

What does it look like when you can't use the helicopter?

Gordon:

Let me give you a typical kind of scenario in Zion. Um, every year the SAR team responds to serious falls from canyoneers and climbers and often their fatalities. And the team has to eventually extract the body and the process. And then there's a few that are so critically injured that it's very time sensitive and they do risk personnel and equipment with judgment, you know, to expedite, but the, majority of injuries and rescues, are not life threatening. And so you have a little bit of time to sort it out. kind of a typical standard rescue in Zion, which may occur in the narrows or in the subway or sometimes up in Pine Creek is, between 2 p. m. and 4 p. m. in the afternoon, somebody gets injured. Usually they slide down, or they jump, and they fall, and they break their leg, or they dislocate their shoulder, or something similar to that. So then, they can't make a telephone call, because there's no cell service there. So someone has to hike out, and notify someone to then get hold of the rangers at dispatch. So this is going to take two to four hours and so It's between 4 p. m. And 6 p. m. on a typical Saturday or Sunday, we'll get a call A page goes out from search and rescue you need 10 for a rescue in the narrows

Katie:

Wow.

Gordon:

report to dispatch need eight for a carry out on the Kayenta trail or Need 10 for a technical rescue out of the subway. It's always kind of the late afternoon early evening and

Katie:

Witching hour.

Gordon:

Yes, and in the meantime usually what the incident commander for the park will do is they'll send a hasty team which usually one to three Rangers that can hike quickly that know the canyon and Take some minimal gear and their bags, you know first aid stuff And usually some food and water, a little sleeping bag, and, some clothing. And they'll hike quickly to the victim and find out the details, like just how bad are they hurt, with a little bit of help, can they help them self rescue, or are they really incapacitated and are going to need a full rescue. And, uh, sometimes about dark, they determined that, okay, it's going to take a full rescue. It's going to take a full operation and we get them out of here. It's now dark. We can't really launch the helicopter. It's kind of getting dangerous for people who come in for the night. And so they spend the night with the patient.

Carma:

okay,

Gordon:

Yeah, they will, give them pain medication. They'll splint them, put them in a warm sleeping bag, make sure they have dry clothes, and then just hunker down with them for the night. And then the next morning we finished the rescue operation. That has happened many times in Zion. In the Narrows and the Subway. I was just, About six weeks ago, I hiked in on one of those scenarios. And, I had to work the next day, so I didn't volunteer and stay with the patient. But, made sure they were splinted and comfortable. And then she had two rangers with her. And I was like, oh, I'm sorry, but I gotta hike out. Go to the hospital in the morning to work. Maybe I'll see you there. So,

Carma:

ha, see you when you get there,

Katie:

sounds like a hasty ranger has to be willing to suffer a little bit. Oh man.

Gordon:

you're absolutely right. A lot of times in those hasty searches, When they throw their gear together, they always throw in some personal gear just in case this is going to go much longer than they think, because it does do that. Which actually brings me to, one of the questions asked What do I think is essential that everyone should put in their first aid kit or have in their pack if they're in the back country of Zion or doing canyoneering

Katie:

Right. everyone's trying to go light and fast, but what are the things that you do want in there without taking the kitchen sink? Tell us Gordon, please.

Gordon:

Exactly. I am an advocate of, light and fast. Whenever I go canyoneering with people, they kind of do make a comment. They're like, well, why don't you stop and enjoy a little bit? And I'm like, well, when we get through the technical section, I'll kind of tone down the urgency a little bit, because then I know, okay, we're through this. But even in canyons that are going to take me 45 minutes, or a canyon that's going to take me 12 hours, I do have the same basic things every time. And, it has proven to be of help in a few situations. Any of these kits, you always keep in mind that you hope to never use the gear. but that's exactly when you need it is when you're not expecting it. So, I think everyone should have, an emergency blanket or a little emergency bivvy sack. That they can crawl into or cover themselves. I think they should have a light layer of clothing like a light jacket or a little tiny puffy that will pack down. Even in the summer in Zion, the deep slots can get really cold at night, surprisingly cold. Uh, I always take a little beanie, a little lightweight beanie as well. Personal first aid kit, Obviously several band aids, a light roll of gauze. And a roll of, uh, medical tape. Headlamp with extra batteries,

Carma:

yep, heh heh,

Gordon:

Matches with a little candle.

Katie:

Can you tell us about that? That was new to me last year. So can you just tell for the listeners who are wondering, what are you going to do with a candle?

Gordon:

Oh, well, I mean, it can provide backup in case, like, say your headlamp got way too wet and it was supposed to be waterproof and it wasn't, and so you don't have any light. So it provides another thing of light. But if you make yourself a little shelter, sometimes a little candle can give you a little bit of warmth.

Katie:

Awesome.

Gordon:

I mean, I'm not talking about canyoneering when we're building snow caves, but anyone who's ever built a snow cave and spent a night in it knows that if you put a candle or two in there, it's remarkable, uh, how much warmth it brings to that little area that you're hanging out in. So, I always have just a small candle in mine. Oh, a knife. A small knife. About 15 feet of cord, cordelette. But it's small, so it's not too bulky.

Carma:

mm hmm.

Gordon:

Uh, a Sam splint.

Carma:

Yes, I always carry mine.

Gordon:

Yeah. Ah. Heh heh. think more important than size is just one of them. My canyon one is probably one of the smaller ones, but I always just have it in the back part of my pack there. It's so light, you don't even know it's there, and it can be so helpful. Those are the things right off I can think of that I take every time. And I've had people kind of tease me a little bit over the years, uh, 110 degree day in Zion, I've got all this little stuff, including a puffy jacket.

Carma:

Mm hmm.

Gordon:

But, uh, I'd much rather have it Yeah.

Katie:

like crazy at nighttime. And I think until you've been in there, it's hard to even fathom how cold it can get on a summer night.

Carma:

Especially when you're wet or you've been wet and you're trying to warm up, it can be really cold.

Gordon:

I was talking with some of the Rangers the other day because we were reflecting on the things that we see over in Zion and, hypothermia is actually been a considerable part of the injuries and problems we've seen with canyoneers over the years. And again, as I, and you kind of get the feeling, Oh, it's the desert. It's very hot down there and everything, but, all times of the year, and especially in the spring and the fall, hypothermia is an issue in, people that are canyoneering and it contributes to poor decision making and their injuries. for sure. And several of our deaths over the past couple years in Zion canyoneering has been attributed to hypothermia.

Carma:

Are you finding that people are not taking thick enough wetsuits and things? Is that contributing to it? overall cold conditions getting on top of people.

Gordon:

Not so much that they don't take enough wetsuits is that they don't take them at all. That, like they say, well I can make it through the Pine Creek slot, it's right by the tunnel highway there. It's only got a handful of rappels and most people can do it in a couple hours. But that slot is deep and dark and wet and when you get several people staged at the rappels it slows you down and, there have been several incidences of, people needing help and rescue from the SAR team in Pine Creek that was related to hypothermia. Yeah.

Katie:

I

Gordon:

But the majority of people, get cold quite easily. It's only a few of you really husky guys that seem to be able to tolerate it really well. And don't let them be the one that says, Oh, we're going to be fine in there. And yeah.

Katie:

learned to make my temperature call on my own a long time ago.

Gordon:

Yeah, when it, comes to conditions in the canyons, regarding temperature, I would err on the side of caution and be, more than prepared for cold conditions. There's been a few times where I've left my wetsuit in my pack and carried it through and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Carma:

Yeah. because you had it if you would have needed it. Yeah,

Gordon:

right.

Katie:

So, some people struggle to figure out when in the backcountry is it a good time to call SAR. No matter how prepared you are, sometimes things go sideways, and what would you say are good reasons to call SAR?

Gordon:

That is a, an issue or a question that of course is debatable, but I come from a rock climbing background and The way I was taught by my mentor and through the years of climbing is that you self rescue if at all possible. And you always take a little bit of gear with you to escape a climb, to self rescue. And you have that, mindset in certain situations that, well, I'm going to solve my own problems here. And so, I think that should still be the case in canyoneering. I think you should, in your group. think through things, maybe have a little bit of contingency plan, have the extra gear along for rescue and, have the, the mindset that we're going to solve our own problems.

Carma:

Mm hmm.

Gordon:

And in canyoneering, sometimes that can be some of the most rewarding situations is where you've come across something that's unexpected, or you have a rope that gets stuck, or, someone gets, you know, minorly injured, how are you going to deal with this, and I think that's part of the fun and challenge of canyoneering and adventure climbing, you know, big routes and alpine routes. But having said that, there is a point where it might be the time to reach out and call for rescue. And when you do that, uh, you don't want to delay it so far that you've actually now pushed your window out to where they can't rescue you that, very day, or you've put yourself in a situations now worse because you held off. So there is a, period of judgment there where. Okay, it's great that you're tough and everything, but you should have probably called for rescue a few hours earlier, but that, that should probably be on a case by case basis. But once you decide that you're going to call for rescue, you're now going to involve other people, not only their time, their equipment, but, the risk of them being in, the situation that you are and coming to help and all that's involved in, traversing usually rugged and, and wilderness type terrain.

Carma:

hmm.

Gordon:

I think that a good rule of thumb would be is if you have someone that has a broken lower extremity and they cannot walk anymore, then that's likely when you're going to need some help.

Carma:

Yeah.

Gordon:

If you have someone that has altered mental status, they are no longer coherent or able to talk or communicate, that would be an indication for rapid help. Someone that has unstable vital signs or hemorrhage. They're bleeding and you can't seem to control it, and in some way you're able to tell their vital signs are not stable, they're not a super fast heart rate, they're having a hard time breathing, you can obviously tell the urgency of the situation.

Carma:

Mm hmm.

Gordon:

Uh, if there's a significant risk of environmental exposure, like, hypothermia, like we're not going to survive the night if we don't call for help. not just be uncomfortable. There's a difference between, yeah, you're really cold and uncomfortable and you're cold and hungry and you just want to get home to like, okay, this is serious life threatening hypothermia. I need to reach out.

Carma:

Yeah, I saw, video, earlier this year, from helicopter picking up some people in the subway when there was snow and ice everywhere. And I was like, whew, yeah, I mean, that, that would be that kind of situation. Like, we will not survive the night in

Gordon:

Yes. Yes, those young men were fortunate to have survived that experience.

Carma:

Yeah, it

Gordon:

Yeah.

Carma:

Another kind of general, search and rescue question. We touched on it a little bit, the personal satellite devices that everybody has now, but how do you think,'cause you've been with Search and Rescue probably long enough to see the difference between, you know, before everyone had these devices and now when they're seem to be common, at least in our groups that we run around with are common. How has that changed search and rescue?

Gordon:

The satellite devices have certainly changed things in that more people have access to calling backcountry themselves. And there have been several incidences in Zion where The satellite company has contacted Zion Dispatch and notified them that there is a call for help within the park boundaries. And we have hiked up and found the party and helped them. And so it has been very helpful.

Katie:

That's nice.

Gordon:

But at the same time, as you've discovered when you were doing Mystery Canyon, is that these satellite devices still have considerable slot canyons. And, that satellite's got to go over, there's got to be a clear sky, you've got to have a window of time. And so sometimes that, call for help may not actually be sent out for several hours. So, it's not the end all device. It still has considerable limitations. And I think it's a good idea for people who frequent the back country and wilderness areas to have it because it's available to us now, but there should be other thoughts and other methods and other plans, to, call for help or to. You know, work through your rescue scenarios without depending on it completely.

Carma:

right. Or like you talked about that timeline of by the time someone hikes out, can get a message out and then it's dark and like, you still may need to stay the night in the canyon. So you need to be prepared for that scenario, whether you're carrying an inReach or not.

Katie:

That can't be your primary way of, of rescuing yourself.

Carma:

yeah,

Gordon:

You can't put so much trust into that that you forego the other good planning and equipment that you might have to spend an unexpected night out. One of the lectures I do with the park rangers every couple years and with local EMS is I have a lecture that I... Titled, The Unexpected Night out, and I talked about some of these issues and what, what gear they should take as a rescuer and if they're just personally, you know, going through canyons and hiking and climbing and stuff, so.

Katie:

That makes a lot of sense.

Carma:

yeah, especially if you're, yeah, on the rescue team, you're gonna do it, right? Eventually you're gonna spend a night in a canyon.

Gordon:

Yeah.

Katie:

want to.

Gordon:

one of the most common, calls, to the park rangers. But doesn't always require a full on rescue team rescue, is party overdue. That is frequent all through the season over in Zion. There's a party overdue, someone's loved ones or family or spouse has called and said, they were supposed to be out tonight. They haven't come out and haven't called me. And because it's such a common thing, the rangers don't get too excited until they get more specific details and find out there's truly someone injured or in trouble. And the reason why Party overdue is so common is because they truly underestimate the backcountry of the Zion. Canyon miles and canyoneering are not the same as hiking miles.

Carma:

right?

Katie:

That is a really good shout out.

Gordon:

And specifically Canyon miles and the backcountry of the Zion are not the same as other miles. So someone may read And see an Instagram or a Facebook or even read on websites about wonderful subway hike in Zion National Park or, the Narrows. It's one of the greatest hikes in the world, which I can't argue with. It's just spectacular. And they see, it's like, oh, it's nine miles. Oh, it's six miles. Oh, it's 12 miles. And they're like, well, I can hike that. I, I've hiked a trail like that. I hiked up to a lake that was six miles up and back and I did it in just a few hours. it's not the same in the back country there with route finding and negotiating slots and pools and such. And so, yeah, most of the time they usually get too late of a start. They have someone in their party who thought they were fit, but they were not. And they are truly not physically prepared for it. They run into obstacles that they have difficulty negotiating because they don't have the right equipment. I have seen parties in the subway, because you can get a permit for up to 12 people on the same permit in the subway. And between the 12 people, they'll have two harnesses. And they'll have to pass it up to each person, and then down, up, and down. And so you can see it, like how one rappel will take them an hour, hour and a half to do.

Katie:

Yeah, I've seen that too.

Gordon:

so, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so, yeah, underestimating the difficulty, that backcountry miles are not the same as just hiking miles on regular easy trails, changing weather conditions. Even though it's hot summer, it can get cold in the evening and then they get fatigued because they run out of water. And another silly thing that we've seen in some of our rescues is they're not injured, that they are sick with heat related illness and it's because they won't drink any water and they're hiking in water. And, I find that kind of interesting. It's like, yeah, we'd like to purify water, and I'd always recommend that you filter water and have clean water, but when it comes to life and death, if you're hiking in water, and you're getting to that point, just drink it. Right You might get a bellyache, you might need an antibiotic for a week afterwards, but you'll be alive.

Katie:

You're gonna get through today. Yeah.

Gordon:

We have had a couple of deaths in Zion where they hiked along the stream, not wanting to drink it because they were afraid of contaminated water, and they succumbed to extreme dehydration and hyperthermia. That has

Katie:

happened Wow.

Carma:

Wow.

Gordon:

Yeah, and we, we had one in the subway.

Katie:

Ah, that's terrible.

Carma:

Yeah, because the solution to their problem was right at their feet.

Katie:

But fear.

Gordon:

It's a fear that's out of proportion. Uh, they don't realize that. Yeah. Contaminated water may give you a problem, but it's not an immediate problem and it can be, taken care of rather easily, but death from, you know, dehydration, hyperthermia and exhaustion is, rapid and real and in that case, I give you permission to drink the water from that pool. ha.

Carma:

Drink any water you can find. No no matter

Gordon:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Carma:

Awe man

Gordon:

So you remember Aaron ralston, right?

Katie:

Yeah, I read his book.

Gordon:

Ralston, if you can, you know. I've actually canyoneered with Aaron, since his accident, so I've, had the privilege of descending a canyon with him and watching how he negotiates rapels with his one, hand and everything. It's pretty remarkable. And, uh, I was able to personally talk to him about his story, which was just amazing. But yeah, when he finally got himself free, when he came to that first pool, it was not a clean pool, but he slurped it down he was at a point where he just needed the liquid absolutely

Carma:

I mean, that was days later, right?

Gordon:

Yeah two or three

Carma:

days later?

Katie:

and we can deal with Giardia later.

Carma:

it's amazing that even, like, once he got himself free that he even made it out of there.

Katie:

So along those lines, and talking about canyoneers and the problems that come up for them, do you think there's any main root causes in the problems for canyoneers?

Gordon:

The root causes for like injuries or need for rescue or, when they get into trouble in the canyons, they have, I

Katie:

we take one step

Gordon:

yeah, as we've talked, anybody can have trouble on any given day, even if you're completely prepared, you can. Twist an ankle, you can slip and slide and, you know, break your leg, you can have rock fall and, you know, they can hit you, you can lose control of a repel and just repel too quickly and, you know, hurt yourself. I mean, there's just lots of different ways. probably the number one way is on the approach, I trip and fall with my pack.

Carma:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Katie:

gully

Gordon:

yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, probably some common themes that, over the years I've seen with, uh, search and rescue, a we've already gotten over most of this stuff, but it would be, underestimating the difficulty and length of the canyon and not getting an early start. Not having a mentor or someone with you who is experienced and can help you solve the problems. So, inexperience. I mean, everyone's got to start somewhere, but there are just some activities where It's not best to just figure it out on your own. You really should take a course. Or you should go with a mentor. And my climbing background, it was very important to, establish a mentor, become friends, or somehow get into a climbing group where you could then shadow and learn from these mentors. And in canyoneering, I think that's the same. There are some courses out there. And you can get started that way, but even so, I think, uh, you should probably reach out in canyoneering groups and on social media and try to link up with people who have experience and, and get some of these canyons under your belt and start with the simple ones, the grade two, the grade three, before you tackle the fours. Uh, The big three I talk about in Zion are, of course, Kolob, which was my favorite, Imlay. Especially in low water conditions where you have to hook out of many potholes and stuff. And then heaps. I consider heaps the most difficult canyon in Zion for multiple reasons. And I would never recommend anyone that's just done a few... It's not just hiking and rappelling. It's way more than that So, yeah.

Katie:

out to like the rock climbing world. No one would go trad

Carma:

yeah

Gordon:

Yeah, buy their rack and go try climbing.

Katie:

wouldn't ever go out without a mentor.

Gordon:

will get injured. It's not if, they

Katie:

You will get injured. Let somebody point out that bad piece instead of having it pop on you, and yet sometimes you don't, translate that over

Gordon:

canyoneering. Yeah.

Katie:

That's a very good way to relate it.

Gordon:

Yeah. we've had, several injuries and even, one death I know of in Zion that they took a canyoneering course the day before and then they went and did it themselves the next day. And I commend them for taking the course, but they graduated too quickly to being independent the next day and thinking they could do it themselves and it resulted in, uh, their death.

Katie:

There was somebody I came across that had done the same thing, and it wasn't as bad. They were trying to rappel in the subway on a third hand through a waterfall and got stuck on their third hand. And, like, you commend them. These folks were from a different country, even, and come and take a course and go do the canyon the next day and try to do a beginner canyon. And without a mentor, just kind of point out how it works and get your feet wet. It can be difficult

Gordon:

Yeah, I agree.

Carma:

you don't know what you don't know right you need somebody who knows more than you to help you get through

Katie:

and I

Gordon:

Yeah.

Katie:

application because what you're talking about They learned a whole lot of techniques and what I saw is the wrong application of a good technique.

Gordon:

For sure. repelling and waterfalls can really change things.

Katie:

yeah

Gordon:

most challenging. Situations I've had in canyoneering are log jams and waterfalls. They are so tricky and difficult. Yeah. they're just hard to get up on. The anchor is usually slung around a little horn, and so you have to get yourself on repel down, climb over it, hang, get your weight on the thing, and everything's slippery. And sometimes the logs break. I mean, it's just, yeah. I've run into more troubles with difficult log jams in those deep slots than I have just, you know, plain old rappels off of rocks and. Pinch points and stuff, yeah.

Katie:

Yeah, there's recently a fatality in the Pacific Northwest from a logjam that fell through

Gordon:

Yeah,

Katie:

you know, it's like one of those traps you saw as a kid in a storybook, but it really can come to light in there.

Gordon:

yeah.

Katie:

So when a cannoneer does reach the point where they have called search and rescue to come help them out and they've got somebody maybe stabilized. What would you say is something that the team can do to help search and rescue? So not the victim, but the team who's still able, what can they do to help make things run smoothly?

Gordon:

Well, continue to, prepare your injured party for rescue. Get them to a safe location if possible. Up out of the floodplain. Maybe out of the elements, if it's gonna rain, or if it's gonna get cold, you can get him into a little area where you can form a little cave or pocket for warmth. A warming fire in dire situations is sometimes appropriate. Make sure that they're dry. Get wet clothes off and get dry clothes on and wrap them up. Sometimes you forget that when you're damp, it'll just keep you very wet.

Katie:

I've wondered about that with a wetsuit.

Gordon:

Oh yeah, good point.

Katie:

Do you keep it on? Do you take it off? How

Gordon:

yeah. Ha, ha. I've often wondered that myself. There's not a good, you know, straight answer for that. I think if you're still submerged partially in the water, you have no choice but you gotta leave your wetsuit on. If you're in a wetsuit but you're out of the water and there's a canyon breeze, I think it cools you down. I think you need to get it off. If you're able to insulate the wetsuit, like, putting, windbreaker or a barrier around it, then that would be okay. One of the things we do on our search and rescue team is when we rescue people, is we try to remove their wet clothes, but if that's kind of impossible situation, we then, put that vapor barrier around them then in a sleeping bag and then keep them covered there. So yeah, keep them warm dry if possible. If you really think they're going to be there overnight, you know, keep them hydrated. Keep them calm talk to them and then if there's more than one person in the party, maybe consider, only having one or two people stay with the patient and then get everyone else moving and out. Because when a team comes in, of course they gotta focus on the injured party, but if they also now have multiple other members of the party that they have to worry about, that becomes more of a burden. So, I think it's a good idea that you start thinking about everybody in the party. And it's like, okay, well, only one of us needs to stay. We're going to leave this much gear here. Everyone else let's get moving. Let's get out and let's self rescue ourselves out of this situation and let the Rangers take over. Yeah.

Carma:

yeah,

Katie:

Now, logistically, that would mean that you'd need to be able to split into two different groups and still have enough rope to get everybody out, Right.

Gordon:

Right.

Katie:

people aren't going with in the helicopter,

Gordon:

Right. Well, if, you're in that situation where you're still repelling, then you may have to stay together as a party. Yeah. I would just stay together. Yeah. Yeah.

Katie:

through it there, or if you

Gordon:

Yeah.

Katie:

rope, you could.

Gordon:

Right.

Katie:

There's one rappel

Gordon:

Which brings another interesting question. Do I take extra rope through canyons? I personally like to repel on double ropes most of the time. I mean, I'm familiar with the beaner block method, and I often use it in certain scenarios, but I sometimes will take enough rope to repel through a canyon using, the double strand method. I know you want it like, say, fast and light. But you gotta have a good first aid kit, you gotta have some good layers to keep yourself warm in case you get an unexpected night out, and I think extra rope is not a bad idea, even if it's... Maybe, not the full strength, but more like a pull cord type thing so that you have the ability to, if you lose part of your rope or you need to split and you can send someone ahead, it's not a bad idea. I've talked to Bo Beck. I don't know if you guys know Bo Beck. Do you know Bo? Bo is the he's the manager of the Desert Rat

Carma:

Oh,

Gordon:

Yeah, Okay. Yes.

Carma:

I've talked to him multiple

Gordon:

Well, if there's anyone that's more of an expert than me, it would be Bo Beck. Cause you know, he's been here in St. George many years and he started canyoneering probably in a few years before I did, and a climber. And he was involved in search and rescue in Zion for many years and probably went on a lot more calls than me. And he's always in the store there giving advice and getting stories from people and stuff. And, Bo and I've discussed this. We both tend to err on the side of carrying a little extra rope through a canyon. Because of all the stories we've heard over the years, and we just think it's a good idea to have extra rope.

Katie:

We're on team extra rope as well, so you're among friends here. I mean, you could have a core shot, you could stick one, you could need to break

Gordon:

Yeah.

Katie:

and we're on a team of, well, bring a few extra friends, and it's not heavy.

Gordon:

Yeah, that's,

Carma:

right?

Gordon:

for sure. Yeah,

Carma:

we're all about having options.

Katie:

Is there anything that you want the canyoneering community to know or do so that we can all be a little safer and reduce the number of search and rescue calls out in Zion?

Gordon:

As the canyoneering community grows, I think it would be a great idea if they did find mentors and classes that get better prepared before they venture out there. And although it may seem, limiting and quite a hassle, there are rules in place over in Zion National Park regarding canyoneering for a good reason. They have limits on the number of, Canyoneers through a particular drainage day. Some of that is just because the aesthetics of the backcountry. They don't want to spoil the experience for the typical person, to have so many people in the same canyon, you know, in a wilderness setting. But it's also, because if you get too many people stacked up on the rappels, then that can be a, an issue of getting people through the canyon in a timely manner. And also protect the resource. You know, keep things looking wilderness like. So, understand why Zion has the permit system, and it has the limits, and it has the ethics, and abide by them, always. And then, know that the search and rescue team is there, and, willing and ready to help. They're highly trained, they're excited to do it, but at the same time, just know that whenever you call someone to do that, that there is some risk involved and there will be people out there, risking, some injury or even their life in certain situations and to not, lean upon that too much, not, you know, do it lightly.

Carma:

Yeah.

Gordon:

I started canyoneering about 1996 when it was not very popular or common. And I started doing some of the canyons in Zion. of the times I went down through the canyons, I had to have a bolt kit because the anchors were not yet set and, it still needed a way down. I don't carry a bolt kit very much anymore unless I'm doing a first descent with somebody. And now, most people descend a canyon without leaving hardware behind. But it just shows you that when I started, I always carried a bolt kit.

Katie:

Plan A.

Gordon:

Yeah, and I've kept a log, and since 2005, I am at 318 canyon descents.

Carma:

Nice. And, every year I try to do a new canyon I haven't done

Gordon:

before. And I'm able to do that.

Katie:

That's fantastic. Congratulations.

Gordon:

have to, you know, of course, expand to the Grand Canyon, over by Moab. I mean, all of canyon country is a fair game. One of my personal first descents this last year was in Ecuador, so that was pretty cool.

Carma:

Wow.

Gordon:

Yeah, down a big waterfall canyon, that was really awesome. Um,

Katie:

as far as Costa Rica, but I've heard Ecuador is fantastic.

Gordon:

yeah.

Katie:

Well, then we have to ask you, what's your favorite canyon? And I'm gonna double down on it by, what is your favorite canyoneering experience? So it doesn't have to be the canyon was your favorite, but the trip that just, you smile every time you think about it.

Gordon:

Oh.

Katie:

I know it wasn't on the list, so I'll give you a minute,

Gordon:

Well, I've been asked that question many, many times because, My home base is Zion, and I canyoneer over and over there, and I've done some of those canyons, you know, times.

Katie:

Yeah.

Carma:

Yeah.

Gordon:

But it's always different. It's a different time of year, a different year. With different, you know, water levels and conditions and different people, so it's always just a wonderful experience, but if they really pin me down, my favorite is Kolob Canyon from the top, where you start and go down through the technical section and then come out all the way through the narrows. And just this last September, I did Kolob out through the narrows, which usually take two days to do that.

Katie:

Yeah.

Gordon:

absolutely love every minute from the start to the finish of doing Kolob out through the narrows.

Katie:

That's awesome.

Carma:

Sounds amazing. That's, on our list. Neither of us have gotten to hit that one yet, but it's on our

Gordon:

Yes. Another really good one is, one of the Lake Powell Canyons. And, Michael Kelsey, in his book, I think it's, I forget the name of it, Canyoneering on The Colorado

Katie:

The orange one.

Gordon:

it is, it, yes.

Katie:

with that book when there wasn't all sorts of

Gordon:

Okay, well, in one of the canyons, he makes the comment, This is the best overall canyon on the Colorado Plateau. And I thought, what? What? The Colorado Plateau, like, everywhere. And it had such a generic sounding name. It was West canyon.

Katie:

Huh.

Gordon:

Canyon.

Katie:

Doesn't sound special at all.

Gordon:

No,

Carma:

there could be a hundred

Gordon:

Ha ha ha. West Canyon I've done three times. First time I was not able to complete it. The conditions were such, and I underestimated it. Ha ha. But I've done it twice since. And. So you have to take a boat up the lake, leave your boat at the end. Tie it off. Hope it's going to be there when you come back in a couple of days. And you hike for miles up a beautiful canyon that has spring water running through it. And then you get up onto the rim and hike for several more miles and drop into the slot. And you canyoneer. Through just the deepest, darkest slot. You need a headlamp for a few sections. And then you still have to do the six miles back to your boat through a wonderful canyon. It just has everything that you want in canyoneering. It's challenging, it's difficult, it's remote, it's beautiful, it's just got an amazing slot, it's wild. It's technically on the Navajo side of Lake Powell, so anytime you leave the water and go up into the canyons on the south side or the Navajo side, you need to have a permit from the Navajo Nation. I've found that usually pretty easy to obtain, they're willing to give you a permit if you just... Pay the fee but West Canyon is pretty spectacular.

Katie:

Thanks for the recommendation.

Gordon:

But, really hard

Carma:

Yeah.

Katie:

Don't underestimate it, huh?

Gordon:

Yeah. And it has some tributaries or side canyons and I may still go do a couple of those that, you have to have ghosting techniques to do that.

Katie:

Right.

Gordon:

So you got to have the sand traps, the water traps. You got to have pot shots. You got to have a good group,

Katie:

Good group with a lot of gear. Yeah. Awesome

Carma:

And we truly appreciate you and everyone who works with you in Search and Rescue and is putting themselves at risk and is taking time away from their families and their jobs and caring about people strangers. That is unique and we are grateful for that. What can we in the canyoneering community do to support search and rescue in Zion? Is there somewhere we can donate or anything? What can we do to support search and rescue?

Gordon:

Some of the funding comes from entrance fees from the visitors of Zion. And, uh, some of it is allocated like usual, you know, through budgets and things like that. I don't know the best way to, like, target search and rescue for Zion. I think probably the best way would be to be an advocate for Congress to continue to fund our national parks and, provide adequate funding for our visitation and our rescue services there.

Carma:

Right. Well, and what number is Zion now on visitation? Is it the second or third most visited park?

Gordon:

Right.

Katie:

then Zion.

Carma:

Yeah. Or Grand Canyon or

Gordon:

Well, Grand Canyon's huge. Grand Canyon, Yellowstone, the Great Smoky Mountains, just because it's near big population centers and people drive over there. But I, I'm pretty sure Zion's in the top four. Yeah. Yeah. I think it was like 4. 7 million people last year.

Carma:

Wow. so many.

Gordon:

I remember when it hit 2 million people, we thought that was ridiculous.

Katie:

Wow.

Carma:

Yeah. now it's more than doubled from that.

Katie:

Well, I think that's great because if we keep voting for that and advocating for that. Then we can keep those high class rangers that you're talking about. And then you have really skilled people around, contributing and being there for it.

Gordon:

Right.

Carma:

So as it turns out, the Zion Forever Project is the official non profit partner of Zion National Park. You've maybe seen their logos on the park store doors at the visitor center. They have an emergency services fund to support the efforts of the Zion Search and Rescue team. So to make a donation, just go to zionpark. org slash SAR or click on the link we'll provide in the show notes.

Katie:

Awesome. Well, Gordon, we are so thankful for you and the teams that you work with and everybody out at Zion National Park. And we're grateful for you spending your time with us, helping our listeners fill in some gaps in knowledge and just painting an awesome picture for us so that we know what we can do out there to help search and rescue. And when's the right time to push the button. Thanks for being here.

Gordon:

Thank you for having me on the podcast. I always get excited talking about canyoneering anytime.

Carma:

Hey, Canyon Crew, we need your help to grow the show. If you learned something valuable from this episode, please share it with a friend. You can also help more amazing canyoneers find the show by giving us a rating and review on your favorite podcast listening app. Lastly, if you'd like to fund our quest for great canyoneering content, click on the support the show button in the show notes As always, thanks for dropping in with us. We'll catch you on the rap side.

People on this episode

Contributor

Carma Evans

Host
Contributor

Katie Allred

Co-host